A civil engineer by training, Alexis Tsipras, 37, is a Member of Parliament in Greece, and is parliamentary leader of the radical Left coalition group Syriza, which includes the party he presides, Synaspismos. Syriza represents one of the principle Greek radical opposition movements, along with the KKE communist party, ahead of early elections due in 2012. Following the collapse in support for the former governing Greek socialist party Pasok, vilified by its electorate for its unpopular austerity measures introduced amid the Greek debt crisis, the coalition faces its greatest electoral challenge – and opportunity - since it was founded in 2004. In this interview with Amélie Poinssot, Tsipras details his alternative vision of how Greece can emerge from the crisis, and the problems posed by a legacy of division among the Greek Left.
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Mediapart: What alternative do you propose in Greece?
Alexis Tsipras: The question is not about a political alternative in Greece, but a political alternative in Europe. Very early on, we saw that it was a systemic crisis linked to the architecture of the euro. The way in which the crisis was faced in Greece was probably the worst one possible. When you have a problem of public debt, you can’t resolve it by getting deeper into debt, and at the same time demanding that the economy stops functioning. On the contrary, to get out of one’s debts, it is necessary to produce a surplus to pay them back. So I am for a settlement of the debt at a European level, and for a plan for boosting the economy in Greece to counter the recession.
The Greek government should also very swiftly engage on a programme of redistribution of wealth. One example here; at the current time, according to certain reports, there is more than 600 billion euros of Greek money in Swiss banks - that’s almost twice the country’s public debt – sent either by Greek banks or placed directly by individuals abroad. So there is wealth, but it’s not subjected to tax.
Mediapart: How can that be remedied?
A.T.: Our proposition is the following. That everyone in Greece be made to make a declaration that includes all their assets, their housing property, but also their deposits in national and foreign banks, and their movable property. Currently, the tax payer is not required to do this. Of course, you’ll ask me what can stop them from making a false declaration. Very strict rules need to be put into place. For example, if someone is caught out for having made a false declaration they must be threatened with the confiscation of their assets. Until now, the Greek fiscal system has remained unjust and unequal.
Another idea we propose [is] an exceptional contribution from ship owners. You know that Greece has the largest commercial fleet in the world. Do you know the level at which Greek ship owners contribute to the public purse, at such a difficult time for our country? Less than immigrants when they have to pay for their residency permit. Ship owners benefit from 58 different sorts of tax relief. There must absolutely be pressure applied to this, and a change made to legislation.
Mediapart: You are for a profound fiscal reform, and for a European solution to the Greek debt issue. Are you therefore in favour of Greece remaining a member of the eurozone?
A.T.: Yes, I don’t believe there can be a political solution outside of the euro. However, I believe that Greece or any other country that sees its sovereign rights and the interests of its people reduced has the right and the duty to defend its national interest, even with the threat of a collapse of the euro.
In reality, we are heading towards the other extremity. The euro is under threat because of Germany’s insistence for a policy of austerity. If there is not a change in the architecture of the euro, that’s to say that if the European central Bank is not given the possibility of producing money and constituting a reserve for the loans of countries that are facing problems, then the euro will not survive.
And perhaps Germany will be the first country to leave the euro. Now, if a country leaves the euro, the eurozone will collapse.
Mediapart: What ties do you envisage with other European parties of the Left?
A.T.: I am the vice-president of the European Party of the Left, the president being Pierre Laurent, national secretary of the French Communist Party. We are in regular contact. Just one week ago we saw each other to discuss developments following the decisions taken at the Brussels summit. I am also close to [French radical Left party leader] Jean-Luc Mélenchon. I hope he obtains a good score at the [French] presidential elections.
The European Party of the Left some time ago tabled a series of alternative propositions for dealing with the crisis. Firstly, we argue for a re-foundation of the eurozone and the euro, we want to change the stability criteria. No more [prioritization of] the deficit, debt and inflation, but rather development - an economy must be required to have positive growth figures -, the lowest possible unemployment rate and a balance of payments that is weighed equally between imports and exports. So that we don’t fall into this vast dumping ground between the countries of the North and the South, whereby the advantages of the North are the shortcomings of the South.
Our second axis is the role of the European Central Bank. Nowhere in the world is there an economy with a single common currency and a common monetary policy without a central bank that can finance and print money.
Finally, the third axis. We need a European budget, a generous one, in order to finance growth. A community purse can be financed by countries according to their capacities.
Mediapart: But in Greece you have not been able to build a unified front of Left parties and you are likely to head into early elections in separated ranks. Why is this?
A.T.: It is a question that torments us, ourselves. Every opinion poll shows that if we had a Front of the Left in Greece it would certainly become the major political force in the country. But at the heart of the Communist party, it's the orthodox tendency that dominates, which says that any collaboration with neighbouring parties is [tantamount to an unjust] compromise.
Greece unfortunately has this particularity of a very strong Left, but a Left which , stuck in the confrontations of another epoch, cannot get on and work together. That said, I think that the more time passes, more the members of the Communist Party change and exert pressure on the leadership. Because today, the risk is not that of seeing the other take more votes and elect more Members of Parliament. The question is that of knowing if we can put a stop to a barbaric attack. The only way of opposing this attack is to unite the forces of the Left.
Mediapart: Is it not strange that the Greek Left waited for this crisis of capitalism for so long and that, now it has happened, it cannot unite?
A.T.: To tell the truth, it's not that the Left was waiting for the crisis of capitalism, we are not malevolent, simply [it is that] the Left predicted it. I should add that at each historic collapse, the Left has never won. It wins when society takes heed that there is a possibility for change in social organization. For example, during the 1929 crash, it is not the Left who won in Europe, but fascism. History gives reason to the Left today, because it predicted that capitalism was a system so unjust that it would destroy itself. But for the Left to retrieve its hegemony, it does not suffice to say that we were right, we must also offer solutions, and that we manage to convince. That requires a bit of time.
Mediapart: Because of its austerity policies, the Greek socialist party, Pasok, appears to have definitively lost a large number of its supporters. Meanwhile, abstention and indecision dominate among the electorate. How do you hope to capture these votes ?
A.T.: Pasok is faced with an existential problem. For with the policies it put in place, it has ceased to represent a large part of the social categories that it incarnated until then; the middle classes, who see no further reason to support Pasok because it no longer stands for their interests at all. This dissolution of Pasok is also the decomposition of society, and the same thing can be seen with [conservative Right party] New Democracy, which also no longer represents the interests of the middle classes.
We have here a real opportunity for the Left to talk with these people, to represent them. We should seize this chance. We represent the workers, households on average incomes, unprivileged citizens. We speak to them of a more just society, of an economy of needs and not markets. We say that mankind must be above profit, that there can be a fairer spread of wealth and that each person has the right to a dignified life, to have access to basics like electricity, work, education. Things which 15 years ago were perhaps obvious, but which are unfortunately no longer so today.
Mediapart: The Far right has entered the Greek government. Do you not fear losing influence while the Far Right gains legitimacy?
A.T.: I'm not afraid of [Far Right Laos party leader George] Karatzaferis, he is someone who permanently changes his position. It is true that the Far Right represents a danger in that the crisis can reinforce it. They have even pinched slogans from the Left. I think that the only way of setting up a shield against these demagogic politics is to explain to people that humanism is at the heart of the thinking of the Left, the opposite of that of the heart of the Far Right which is intolerance, fear of one's neighbour, and never solidarity. What they propose is only hatred of what is different. Such hate can never serve the making of a more just society.
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- This interview was conducted in Greek. A French translation can be found by clicking here.
English version by Graham Tearse