On March 24th and March 25th teams from France's independent public body overseeing the rights of those in custody visited nine police stations in Paris. The aim of the staff from the Contrôleur Général des Lieux de Privation de Liberté was to inspect the way people were being treated while in police custody.
In her subsequent report, summed up in a letter to the Ministry of the Interior, the Contrôleure Générale, Dominique Simonnot, pointed to “serious infringements to the fundamental rights of people being held”, to the “massive” use of police custody “for preventative purposes”, and its “manipulation” for “repressive ends”. In his response interior minister Gérald Darmanin disputed the report's findings and said that the controller general had “exceeded her jurisdiction”. The Paris police chief, Laurent Nuñez, meanwhile said he felt “insulted and offended” by the comments.
Mediapart spoke to Dominique Simonnot to get her response to the controversy.
Mediapart: “Serious infringements to the fundamental rights” of people held in custody during the demonstrations against the pension reforms, a “massive use” of police custody with the “aim of maintaining public order”. You use very strong words in your report. Why? What happened during this protest movement to make you use such language?
Dominique Simonnot: What happened is exactly the same as what happened in May 2019 at the time of the 'yellow vest' protests. At that time the Paris prosecutor sent a note to magistrates in which he recommended custody for demonstrators against whom no charges could be brought. It's an approach that seems to have become established and which is completely inappropriate. And it's crazy. These are in effect preventative arrests, [carried out] before people have done anything wrong, to avoid them being at demonstrations. It's a method of intimidation, of saying “watch out when you go on a demonstration”.
Enlargement : Illustration 1
Mediapart: You write that the use of police custody has become a tool for maintaining law and order...
Dominique Simonnot: Yes. And it's not legal. Holding someone in custody is an extremely serious measure, and to be placed in custody you have to be suspected of an offence that is punishable by imprisonment. You need very clear reasons. If there's no evidence you can't be placed in custody. That's the law. If not, there's no more rule of law, there's no more justice. I myself went to the police stations and during our observations those who were in custody there were released. Officers were saying to the constables who had arrested them: “But this person and that person, why did you send them to us?” The facts around the arrests were too vague.
Mediapart: The minister of the interior replied to you by saying these were “exceptional” circumstances.
Dominique Simonnot: You should not act outside legality just because it's difficult. When responding to our report the minister also disputed some of our figures. The reason that everyone was set free without an immediate summons for trial was that they had nothing on them. Reading the files the magistrates realised that there was nothing there [with which to proceed against them] so they let the people go. The reality is that very often it's those who run less fast who are arrested. It's a repressive approach towards the movement.
Mediapart: So the detentions that you saw were, for the most part, wrongful?
Dominique Simonnot: Exactly. And I regret that. It's a bit abnormal. I understand that it's very complicated, that there are lots of people, that the police can't take any more, that their job is tough. Of course you should arrest those who attack the police, no one can support that. But the job of police officers is to hold their nerve and arrest those who need to be arrested. The law is the law and that's all there is to it. You can't forget about the law as soon as there's a particular event...
Mediapart: Once these wrongful detentions are over is there any recourse for those affected?
Dominique Simonnot: No. And the conditions in custody are particularly vile. I promise you, you need to have a strong stomach to enter those cells. At the police station in Nice [editor's note, in the south of France] lawyers have highlighted what we often observe: revolting cells, disgusting sheets and blankets, mattresses that haven't been disinfected, foul toilets without a flush or which has to be operated from outside.
The result: the state has just been ordered by the administrative court in Nice to improve the cells as a matter of urgency or face financial penalties. We'd already reported it, the Ministry of the Interior didn't want to listen to us. I congratulate the action of the lawyers in taking up these issues. We will get there using the law, as it seems impossible to do it politically. The French people should be told how much it costs all of us not to conform with the law. Incidentally, it's the same thing with overcrowded prisons: not having more prisoners than prison places, that will come about via action by lawyers on behalf of their clients, who will get the state condemned in court. The state has to be made to pay.
Enlargement : Illustration 2
Mediapart: Another subject that exercises you: strip searches which, according to your observations, are carried out “systematically”. We're talking here of people undressed in custody, in boxer shorts, pants, and often women without bras. Is that within the rules?
Dominique Simonnot: It is within the rules if there are reasons to think that people are hiding things on their body. But reasons must be given and it must be explained, with the decision made by a senior detective. And that wasn't the case here. No strip search can take place without a legal and explicit basis for it.
Mediapart: Is this a new issue?
Dominique Simonnot: No, it's existed in police stations for a long time. But here it was huge and jumped out at you. It's serious because it contributes to the atmosphere in which you're being held. It's humiliating. It puts you in a vulnerable state. You're not then in the best condition to defend yourself. In the past, magistrates called it “tenderising the meat”. It's a bit like that…
Mediapart: Following your report the Paris police prefect, Laurent Nuñez, denied there had been “preventative arrests” and said he felt “insulted”. Gérald Darmanin said you went too far in speaking about custody being used for “repressive ends”.
Dominique Simonnot: The minister isn't happy, he takes issue. But no, we're not wrong. Independent authorities aren't there to please. I wasn't appointed to make the political authorities happy, nor indeed anyone else. During the observation we were among police officers, magistrates, lawyers, directors of prison services, legal advisers, doctors, psychiatrists etc. The power of our reports is that they are impartial. The minister thinks I've gone outside my jurisdiction because I highlighted a determination to deny [people] their liberty on a massive scale in order to maintain public order. But that's the reality! The use of detention was oppressive, and putting people in custody for no reason should not occur. It's entirely within my jurisdiction to go and observe the extent to which rights are being respected in police stations. I'm sorry that he doesn't like that. It's up to the Ministry of the Interior to be more vigilant about the quality of statements and arrest reports as, incidentally, it itself acknowledges.
Mediapart: Recently the rights ombudsman, the Défenseure des Droits Claire Hédon, also raised the alarm over wrongful arrests. The government didn't like that. Does this reaction endanger your independence?
Dominique Simonnot: On the contrary. I stand by it all. Once again, we're independent, we were established by law. We have the right to visit the places we visit and we can say what we like. I can say what I like. I won't hold back. Perhaps this reaction shows the little confidence that the minister of the interior has in our institution's independence.
There's a balance of power, you have to accept that. I will continue and my team will continue. By the way, I note that when we go on a visit quite a lot of police officers are very happy to see us arrive. It's no great fun for police officers, either, working in places that stink and are absolutely disgusting.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- The original version in French of this interview can be found here.
English version by Michael Streeter